I hear this one quite frequently, so lets have a go at it. The demand is for evidence, but rarely am I given what will constitute sufficient evidence. Evidently, just hearing of Jesus Christ and His redeeming work from another is sufficient for some; for others, reading it in the Bible; for others (like Lee Strobel), a careful look at the historicity and reliability of scripture; for others (like me) add on observations of nature and human behavior to solidify it; and for still others MAYBE a miracle would suffice.
I said maybe, because even eyewitnesses of miracles weren't always convinced (John 11:43-48, Matthew 9:32-34), and make no mistake, it wasn't because they doubted the legitimacy of the miracles themselves. Unlike the TV charlatans we see today, Jesus healed people (as did His apostles later) known for decades by entire communities to be infirm. No, the rejection in these cases were from a hardness of heart - an unwillingness to believe. Why? Is it because with acceptance comes accountability? Perhaps a perceived loss of freedom?I don't believe we are currently in a miraculous period, but God makes it clear that we don't need miracles to believe in Him and that creation is enough (Rom 1:18-23). I also suspect that within each of us is something that resonates, however quietly, with the Truth of God when we hear it. My vote is, we should heed it. And if you are one who has run away from God or even resorted to fighting against Him, here's what happens when you genuinely and humbly return (click). What's stoppin' ya?
"What's stoppin' ya?"
ReplyDeleteNo evidence.
ExPatMatt said...
ReplyDelete"No evidence."
Hi Matt,
Would it be more accurate to say no evidence that you accept?
Bertrand Russell (and more recently, Dawkins) said that's what they'll tell their Maker when they meet Him, if they are wrong. Dr. "Death" Kevorkian (agnostic) said he'll reply to the man on the throne, "Why didn't you make me smarter?"
The choice is of course (as God would have it), your own. But I hope you change your mind. I don't consider us different, you and I. We've both sinned and need a Savior. I've simply accepted His indescribable gift, which also makes Him my Lord.
RS,
--Bit
"Would it be more accurate to say no evidence that you accept?"
ReplyDeleteOnly in the sense that there's 'no evidence that I accept' with regards to Invisible Pink Unicorns, Pixies, Goblins and Flying Spaghetti Monsters.
You can pretty much say that anything is evidence for your particular belief system and that therefore people who do not accept your belief system are just not accepting this evidence that you claim to have.
Rather than talking abstractly, why don't you give me a couple of things that you consider evidence that I should give reasonable consideration? (deliberately wording it that way because, while personal revelation/changed life might be good evidence for you it's just anecdotal to me).
Cheers,
ExPatMatt said...
ReplyDelete"...Invisible Pink Unicorns..."
Wow, you mean all this time I've said no prayers to them? They must be infuriated!
I'm just teasing when I do that, and mean no disrespect - if it offends, please let me know and I'll knock it off. But really, that merges with the argument on Bible reliability. I know they are really an example of fabrication of untestable entities, but it's the written testimony of Jesus' eyewitnesses I accept as tangible evidence.
That's what it all hinges on. If I became convinced the Bible is false, I would join you in a moment, saying, "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die." But what I observe in general revelation (nature) only convinces me further, but I'll post separately for that.
Ok, non-abstract evidence for consideration: DNA information code. I know on my "ID" post, you said you don't know a lot about it, but perhaps we can start with your definition of information and take it from there.
Bit,
ReplyDeleteNever worry about teasing or being sarcastic or anything - I've a good sense of humour and a thick skin so there's very little chance of me getting offended by something like that.
"I know they are really an example of fabrication of untestable entities,"
How do you know this (especially if they are untestable)?
"...but it's the written testimony of Jesus' eyewitnesses I accept as tangible evidence."
I was under the impression that practically none of the Bible is first-hand eye-witness testimony from Jesus' life. Why do you accept that this written testimony is true and accurate?
"Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may die."
Atheism ain't all picnics and sunshine (mixed with nihilism), you know! :)
As for 'information' - I honestly don't think I have a clear definition of it in my mind, but I'll give it a go:
"Information is data that is capable of conveying use or meaning to a reader."
That's the first thing that comes to mind, if you have a more suitable definition, let me know.
If scientists manage to show that DNA can form spontaneously as a result of natural processes (from base amino acids, say), how would that affect your understanding of DNA as 'evidence' for a Designer?
Cheer,
ExPatMatt...
ReplyDeleteI meant to convey that I understand the invisible unicorns, FSM, etc. are atheist examples of untestable entities.
Scriptural claims on the other hand are testable to a degree, but make no mistake, will still require faith to accept. ALL world views require faith - even agnostic. The tenets of agnosticism are that if God exists, He either IS not known by man (soft) or CANNOT be known by man (hard).
As for the New Testament issue, its canonization is so easy. From the start of New Testament writing, the Christian community accepted scripture as inspired by God only when it came from one of Jesus' hand-picked Apostles (listed in Matt 10:1-4), or one of their direct students (Mark, Luke). Paul was also an Apostle, hand-picked by (the risen) Jesus, but was an exception in that he did not accompany Jesus during His 3.5-year ministry, so he does not appear in the list in the gospel narratives. While it's true that frauds attempted very early on to insert their own stuff (Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Gnostic stuff, etc), there has been an unbroken "chain of custody" of inspired scripture from the jump. Imagine if someone had come to the early church fathers after the Apostles were gone, attempting such a thing.
Forger: "Hey I found this scripture, written by Matthew (an apostle).
Church Fathers: "Really, where'd you find it?"
Forger: "In a cave"
Church Fathers: "Why didn't Matthew tell us about it before he died?"
Forger: "I don't know"
The next question is why did the early Christian community accept even the writings of the apostles or their students as inspired? Answer - miracles. This is one of the four purposes of miracles; to verify true apostleship. Wow, getting too lengthy here. Hope you're still awake. Matt, wake up; drink some coffee with Red Bull in it.
[Definition of information]
Ya, we can start with that. I think I'll make a separate post about it and we can pick it up there. If I don't, I'll try to remember to respond to it here, later.
Cheerio,
P.S. What does that mean "Cheers"? A wishing of happiness "cheer" for another, or "Hey I'm cheering for you." Both sound pretty good, I'm just a wonderin'.